I think it's idiotic that hearings and truth commissions akin to these carried out in South Africa should even be considered. In S.A. there were numerous living witnessess, victims, and criminals who could be called to testify. There is no one living today with a firsthand connection to slavery from either side. What are they going to do read old diary entries and oral accounts? And, if accountably is on the table, I assume all these liberal minded people will go back to demand money from their fellow west africans who sold them for rum and guns in the first place to Portugese and English slave traders. Just giving out cash to people generations removed from a crime who may have no way to even prove their lineage back to bondage is kind of crazy. Secondly, I think if anyone deserves reparations, it's the Native American peoples who instead of being put to work without pay were instead slaughtered wholesale, their ancestral lands stolen, and their culture suppressed for the last 500 years. Every treaty the US government ever made with a tribe be it for territory, resources, or friendly relations was broken by the US. So far as the Indians go, there are concrete steps that could be taken-simple ones like honor the f'n treaties-give back the Black Hills, for instance.
Interesting article and interesting comment. I don't really understand Tom's passionate comment about these "idiotic hearings" as I think "apologiz(ing) for owning slaves and promis(ing) to battle current racism" is a good thing--something this country has never done. All too often we ignore the very real and current problems of racism and the role that slavery plays in our contemporary views of black people. Slavery may have ended a long time ago but civil rights for black people is very recent, and if I remember correctly, something parts of the South fought tooth and nail to avoid. Racism is real. This country needs to take ownership of its obscene history whether it’s with slavery or the rape of the Native Americans.
And this ownership is accomplished with cash payouts to descendents of injustice? After the Civil War the Freedman's Bureau was established to provide education and support for newly freed blacks. And of course, the supposed forty acres and a mule. I recognize that southern states did little to protect the rights of the newly freed, but again, why cash now? Secondly, I didn't need you to tell me racism is real. I spent three years teaching in a nearly hopeless inner-city school and saw firsthand the effects of racism. Giving money to the families I worked with for their ancestors sweat would be a mistake.
Katrina and slavery are not the same thing but to trust that money can be given out and not wasted in bureaucracy and mismanagement is a difficult thing to do.
Reparations seem to be talked about as an end goal. Are we to assume that once reparations are made that the US would then have absolved itself finally of having committed the crime that it did? The idea of giving money to individuals rather than social programs bothers me. And I think it very much falsley washes the hands, though I think that racism and slavery, while so intimately intertwined, can be separated out from each other. Slavery in the classic sense ended as an institution but racism remains.
There are a few tangible reparations that can be made to the Native Americans such as giving back land or going back on our going back on our word on treaties. There seem to be very few tangible reparations for African Americans. Even if the US did give every African American a lump sum or designated amount of cash, how much would they really get in the end? Would it be tax free? $100 million dollars paid out wouldn't get us far at all. It was estimated in 2004 that there were 39.2 million African American citizens in the US. $1 billion dollars? How much money would it take to make a dent in the life of a family for a people who were raped, castrated, murdered, tortured, demonized, kept from education, split from their families, denegrated, and stripped of their original identities?
Do we give them back THEIR land as is suggested we do for Native Americans? YOU go live in Liberia. How many African American museums would make the difference? Cultural centers, cultural sensitivity trainings at work, school, and workshops? What would be enough to advance either race or culture to make up for what happened.
The damage is psychological for both groups. And for whites as well. It's an interesting question.
Tom, I apologize if I came off as condescending. That was totally not my intention.
I guess I just don’t see the problem with businesses and/or government paying monetarily for the injustices they took part in for generations. Sure, there is room for abuse and what not but should that stop them from being made to pay? I don’t think so.
A meaningful apology and real movements towards ending racism & poverty can go a long way towards healing the wounds of slavery. The only thing I can think to compare it to is like when a partner cheats on you, how can you ever move past it if you don’t get the deepest & sincerest of apologies over and over again coupled with the wrong doer proving with actions that they’ve learned from their mistakes and want to work on improving relations? If the wrong doer refuses to admit there is a problem nothing can be changed. The country has got to show the black community that they are valued members of society, not destined to be its rejects and have-nots. The money is a strong symbol and I agree, not a real solution but so what?--maybe it will open the door to more meaningful changes like long-term funding for education and after school programs in black neighborhoods.
Tom, I apologize if I came off as condescending. That was totally not my intention.
I guess I just don’t see the problem with businesses and/or government paying monetarily for the injustices they took part in for generations. Sure, there is room for abuse and what not but should that stop them from being made to pay? I don’t think so.
A meaningful apology and real movements towards ending racism & poverty can go a long way towards healing the wounds of slavery. The only thing I can think to compare it to is like when a partner cheats on you, how can you ever move past it if you don’t get the deepest & sincerest of apologies over and over again coupled with the wrong doer proving with actions that they’ve learned from their mistakes and want to work on improving relations? If the wrong doer refuses to admit there is a problem nothing can be changed. The country has got to show the black community that they are valued members of society, not destined to be its rejects and have-nots. The money is a strong symbol and I agree, not a real solution but so what?--maybe it will open the door to more meaningful changes like long-term funding for education and after school programs in black neighborhoods.
Tom, I apologize if I came off as condescending. That was totally not my intention.
I guess I just don’t see the problem with businesses and/or government paying monetarily for the injustices they took part in for generations. Sure, there is room for abuse and what not but should that stop them from being made to pay? I don’t think so.
A meaningful apology and real movements towards ending racism & poverty can go a long way towards healing the wounds of slavery. The only thing I can think to compare it to is like when a partner cheats on you, how can you ever move past it if you don’t get the deepest & sincerest of apologies over and over again coupled with the wrong doer proving with actions that they’ve learned from their mistakes and want to work on improving relations? If the wrong doer refuses to admit there is a problem nothing can be changed. The country has got to show the black community that they are valued members of society, not destined to be its rejects and have-nots. The money is a strong symbol and I agree, not a real solution but so what?--maybe it will open the door to more meaningful changes like long-term funding for education and after school programs in black neighborhoods.
I guess where I fail to see the parallel is that it's not Simon Legree-type slaveholders who are on their knees begging for forgiveness. It's people 141 years removed from the situation. One can apologize to their spouse when they wrong them, but how can I apologize for what my ancestors did centuries ago? Should the Egyptians apologize to descendants of those they enslaved to build the pyramids? Passing out money strikes me as condescending. It suggests that forgiveness is bought. Worse, most now living in the US do not have any ancestral lineage to slaveholders or profiteers due both to immigration and the fact that slaveholders were always a small minority, even in Southern society. My own ancestors came from Nova Scotia, a part of Canada, that at least for a time provided a refuge for Africans seeking freedom.
Tom: if the people whose ancestors were slaves are asking for apologies, then why shouldn’t they have it? An apology costs nothing but goes a long way to salve wounds. And I don’t think the injustices of slavery weighs less just because it didn’t happen in our generation.
I think it's idiotic that hearings and truth commissions akin to these carried out in South Africa should even be considered. In S.A. there were numerous living witnessess, victims, and criminals who could be called to testify.
ReplyDeleteThere is no one living today with a firsthand connection to slavery from either side. What are they going to do read old diary entries and oral accounts? And, if accountably is on the table, I assume all these liberal minded people will go back to demand money from their fellow west africans who sold them for rum and guns in the first place to Portugese and English slave traders. Just giving out cash to people generations removed from a crime who may have no way to even prove their lineage back to bondage is kind of crazy.
Secondly, I think if anyone deserves reparations, it's the Native American peoples who instead of being put to work without pay were instead slaughtered wholesale, their ancestral lands stolen, and their culture suppressed for the last 500 years. Every treaty the US government ever made with a tribe be it for territory, resources, or friendly relations was broken by the US. So far as the Indians go, there are concrete steps that could be taken-simple ones like honor the f'n treaties-give back the Black Hills, for instance.
AMEN AND AMEN!!!!
ReplyDeleteInteresting article and interesting comment.
ReplyDeleteI don't really understand Tom's passionate comment about these "idiotic hearings" as I think "apologiz(ing) for owning slaves and promis(ing) to battle current racism" is a good thing--something this country has never done. All too often we ignore the very real and current problems of racism and the role that slavery plays in our contemporary views of black people. Slavery may have ended a long time ago but civil rights for black people is very recent, and if I remember correctly, something parts of the South fought tooth and nail to avoid. Racism is real. This country needs to take ownership of its obscene history whether it’s with slavery or the rape of the Native Americans.
And this ownership is accomplished with cash payouts to descendents of injustice?
ReplyDeleteAfter the Civil War the Freedman's Bureau was established to provide education and support for newly freed blacks. And of course, the supposed forty acres and a mule. I recognize that southern states did little to protect the rights of the newly freed, but again, why cash now?
Secondly, I didn't need you to tell me racism is real. I spent three years teaching in a nearly hopeless inner-city school and saw firsthand the effects of racism. Giving money to the families I worked with for their ancestors sweat would be a mistake.
Katrina and slavery are not the same thing but to trust that money can be given out and not wasted in bureaucracy and mismanagement is a difficult thing to do.
ReplyDeleteReparations seem to be talked about as an end goal. Are we to assume that once reparations are made that the US would then have absolved itself finally of having committed the crime that it did? The idea of giving money to individuals rather than social programs bothers me. And I think it very much falsley washes the hands, though I think that racism and slavery, while so intimately intertwined, can be separated out from each other. Slavery in the classic sense ended as an institution but racism remains.
There are a few tangible reparations that can be made to the Native Americans such as giving back land or going back on our going back on our word on treaties. There seem to be very few tangible reparations for African Americans. Even if the US did give every African American a lump sum or designated amount of cash, how much would they really get in the end? Would it be tax free? $100 million dollars paid out wouldn't get us far at all. It was estimated in 2004 that there were 39.2 million African American citizens in the US. $1 billion dollars? How much money would it take to make a dent in the life of a family for a people who were raped, castrated, murdered, tortured, demonized, kept from education, split from their families, denegrated, and stripped of their original identities?
Do we give them back THEIR land as is suggested we do for Native Americans? YOU go live in Liberia. How many African American museums would make the difference? Cultural centers, cultural sensitivity trainings at work, school, and workshops? What would be enough to advance either race or culture to make up for what happened.
The damage is psychological for both groups. And for whites as well. It's an interesting question.
Tom, I apologize if I came off as condescending. That was totally not my intention.
ReplyDeleteI guess I just don’t see the problem with businesses and/or government paying monetarily for the injustices they took part in for generations. Sure, there is room for abuse and what not but should that stop them from being made to pay? I don’t think so.
A meaningful apology and real movements towards ending racism & poverty can go a long way towards healing the wounds of slavery. The only thing I can think to compare it to is like when a partner cheats on you, how can you ever move past it if you don’t get the deepest & sincerest of apologies over and over again coupled with the wrong doer proving with actions that they’ve learned from their mistakes and want to work on improving relations? If the wrong doer refuses to admit there is a problem nothing can be changed. The country has got to show the black community that they are valued members of society, not destined to be its rejects and have-nots. The money is a strong symbol and I agree, not a real solution but so what?--maybe it will open the door to more meaningful changes like long-term funding for education and after school programs in black neighborhoods.
Tom, I apologize if I came off as condescending. That was totally not my intention.
ReplyDeleteI guess I just don’t see the problem with businesses and/or government paying monetarily for the injustices they took part in for generations. Sure, there is room for abuse and what not but should that stop them from being made to pay? I don’t think so.
A meaningful apology and real movements towards ending racism & poverty can go a long way towards healing the wounds of slavery. The only thing I can think to compare it to is like when a partner cheats on you, how can you ever move past it if you don’t get the deepest & sincerest of apologies over and over again coupled with the wrong doer proving with actions that they’ve learned from their mistakes and want to work on improving relations? If the wrong doer refuses to admit there is a problem nothing can be changed. The country has got to show the black community that they are valued members of society, not destined to be its rejects and have-nots. The money is a strong symbol and I agree, not a real solution but so what?--maybe it will open the door to more meaningful changes like long-term funding for education and after school programs in black neighborhoods.
Tom, I apologize if I came off as condescending. That was totally not my intention.
ReplyDeleteI guess I just don’t see the problem with businesses and/or government paying monetarily for the injustices they took part in for generations. Sure, there is room for abuse and what not but should that stop them from being made to pay? I don’t think so.
A meaningful apology and real movements towards ending racism & poverty can go a long way towards healing the wounds of slavery. The only thing I can think to compare it to is like when a partner cheats on you, how can you ever move past it if you don’t get the deepest & sincerest of apologies over and over again coupled with the wrong doer proving with actions that they’ve learned from their mistakes and want to work on improving relations? If the wrong doer refuses to admit there is a problem nothing can be changed. The country has got to show the black community that they are valued members of society, not destined to be its rejects and have-nots. The money is a strong symbol and I agree, not a real solution but so what?--maybe it will open the door to more meaningful changes like long-term funding for education and after school programs in black neighborhoods.
sorry for the multiple posts, i'm having internet trouble.
ReplyDeleteI guess where I fail to see the parallel is that it's not Simon Legree-type slaveholders who are on their knees begging for forgiveness. It's people 141 years removed from the situation. One can apologize to their spouse when they wrong them, but how can I apologize for what my ancestors did centuries ago? Should the Egyptians apologize to descendants of those they enslaved to build the pyramids? Passing out money strikes me as condescending. It suggests that forgiveness is bought. Worse, most now living in the US do not have any ancestral lineage to slaveholders or profiteers due both to immigration and the fact that slaveholders were always a small minority, even in Southern society. My own ancestors came from Nova Scotia, a part of Canada, that at least for a time provided a refuge for Africans seeking freedom.
ReplyDeleteOh don't get me started on cheating spouses almp because you'll never hear the end of it.
ReplyDeletewhy, kevin, whatever are you talking about? ;)
ReplyDeleteTom: if the people whose ancestors were slaves are asking for apologies, then why shouldn’t they have it? An apology costs nothing but goes a long way to salve wounds.
And I don’t think the injustices of slavery weighs less just because it didn’t happen in our generation.